How I Became Convinced the Church Will Face the Entire Tribulation
When will Christ appear and gather His people? The question has captivated many Christians over the lifetime of the Church. Will He gather us before the great tribulation, in the middle, before God’s wrath is poured out, or afterwards? Or was the great tribulation fulfilled in the first century when Rome destroyed the temple, or over the lifespan of the Church?
Some call to remembrance how most of the Jews got the prophecy about Jesus’ first coming wrong (it’s true), and extrapolate forward, suggesting we’ll probably get the end times prophecy wrong, too. The important thing, they say, is to believe the gospel. We’ll understand it when it happens. “Jesus wins in the end!” That defeats the point of end times prophecy, though, which is to prepare us. Revelation 1:1 begins, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place.” Sandwiched between four warnings about end times deceptions, Jesus says, “See, I have told you beforehand” (Mt 24:25). He cares about us finishing well—that’s why He tells us what to expect, and what He expects of us. Whether we care is up to each one of us.
Others go even further, saying, “I can’t understand it, and you can’t either.” They point to all the conflicting beliefs of smart men as evidence the Scriptures are unclear. I call this “agnostic eschatology.” If you are not acquainted with the word “eschatology”, it comes from the Greek eskhatos (“last”), Theo (“God”) and -logy (“the study of”). New Oxford American Dictionary defines it: “the part of theology concerned with death, judgment, and the fi
nal destiny of the soul and of humankind”—a broad term which includes end times prophecy. I think agnostic eschatology is often a smoke screen for, “Don’t try to convince me,” but some may earnestly believe it. Being honest about what we do and don’t know concerning God’s Word is a good trait, but agnostic eschatology is dangerous because it encourages hearers to apathy concerning a portion of God’s Word. Jesus said: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch? A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher” (Lk 6:39-40).
How does a person find clarity when conflicting teachings are swirling about? They go to the authoritative source of truth—God’s Word!
When Paul came to town and shared the gospel, the Bereans withheld immediate judgment. With eagerness, they searched the Scriptures to see if Paul’s testimony (about salvation in Christ) was true (Jn 5:39). The Holy Spirit illuminated His Word and many believed (Ac 17:10-12). I admire their love for the LORD and for the truth, and have tried to live my life this way.
For as long as I can remember, I believed Jesus could appear at any moment and take the Christians to heaven so they wouldn’t have to suffer during the horrible days of the great Tribulation. My parents don’t recall teaching me this, but nonetheless I learned it from a young age while growing up in the church.
An answered prayer to understand Jesus’ reply in Luke 17:37 caused me to doubt my Pre-Tribulation “Rapture” conviction. If you have not read it, I encourage you to take a short detour to my blog post, “Luke 17:37: The Carcasses, the Eagles, and the Taken” before continuing here.
God gave me a strong faith in the integrity of His Word since I was young. I had already learned how people can have wrong beliefs about the Bible, but the Word of God does not have error. I also had faith that God’s Word would provide clarity—it was just a matter of searching it.
“A Pre-Tribulation Rapture isn’t in Luke 17 or Matthew 24. If it exists, where is it?” I began to search the Scriptures.
I have prayed for you, dear reader (God knows who you are), that when you read the Scriptures I am about to share, the Holy Spirit would illumine your heart as He did mine.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, particularly verses 15-17, was the first passage that helped me. When you read it, what do you see about the timing of the gathering of the living? Said another way, when are those who are alive and remain caught up in the clouds?
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, NKJV
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
I noticed the Lord describes two groups of people—those who are alive and remain [in Christ] until the coming of the Lord, and those who are asleep in the Lord. Asleep, in this context, refers to physical death—a point clear from its use in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14. Jesus also referred to Jairus’ dead daughter as “asleep” (Lk 8:49-56), and likewise, Lazarus (Jn 11:11-15).
I have highlighted the alive in gray and the dead in red. “Caught up” is translated from the Greek verb harpazo. The noun “rapture” derives from the Latin translation of harpazo: rapiemur or rapturo. The timing words I highlighted in yellow.
I saw the dead in Christ rise first before those who are alive and remain are caught up. Therefore, to understand when the living will be gathered to the Lord, we need to know when the dead rise.
Later, I read about the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6. For full context, verse 1 is the best place to begin.
Revelation 20:1-6, NKJV
20 1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
I noticed the first resurrection cannot be before the Tribulation, since it includes people who refused to worship the beast or his image, or receive his mark on their foreheads or on their hands (Rv 13:15-17; 14:9-13). Further, they rise to reign with Christ a thousand years while Satan is bound for a thousand years unable to deceive anyone. Satan will certainly be deceiving people up until Jesus returns in Revelation 19:19-21. So, our gathering is at His coming, after the [entire] Tribulation. Since the bodies of the slain (Rv 19:21) are a sign to us (Mt 24:28, Lk 17:37), the gathering of the living is also post-wrath.
I closed my Bible and praised the Lord for answering my prayer. Immediately I knew when I was older that I wanted to write down these verses (and others like them) in an orderly way to share them with others.
Nobody looks forward to the hard days described by the Bible, but I am convinced understanding/believing the basic timeline (post-Tribulation resurrection-gathering) is one key to being prepared to overcome in the Tribulation.
I don’t remember how long it actually took for me to put these together, but I think it was less than a month. If you are not convinced today, I encourage you to look deeper into the matter.
The Bereans also put time into their pursuit of truth. It says they “searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so” (Ac 17:11). They did not give up after reading one chapter, or one day—but they apparently kept searching every day until they reached a conclusion. I urge you not to trust anyone else’s journey/conclusions, but make your own by studying the authoritative truth source—the Holy Scriptures. It doesn’t matter if you’re six or 96—God wrote His Word to be understood by those who love the truth.
I will write frequently about end times prophecy here on Overcoming the Tribulation. If you would like, you can subscribe to receive my blog in your e-mail.
God bless you.
When will Christ appear and gather His people? The question has captivated many Christians over the lifetime of the Church. Will He gather us before the great tribulation, in the middle, before God’s wrath is poured out, or afterwards? Or was the great tribulation fulfilled in the first century when Rome destroyed the temple, or over the lifespan of the Church?
Some call to remembrance how most of the Jews got the prophecy about Jesus’ first coming wrong (it’s true), and extrapolate forward, suggesting we’ll probably get the end times prophecy wrong, too. The important thing, they say, is to believe the gospel. We’ll understand it when it happens. “Jesus wins in the end!” That defeats the point of end times prophecy, though, which is to prepare us. Revelation 1:1 begins, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place.” Sandwiched between four warnings about end times deceptions, Jesus says, “See, I have told you beforehand” (Mt 24:25). He cares about us finishing well—that’s why He tells us what to expect, and what He expects of us. Whether we care is up to each one of us.
Others go even further, saying, “I can’t understand it, and you can’t either.” They point to all the conflicting beliefs of smart men as evidence the Scriptures are unclear. I call this “agnostic eschatology.” If you are not acquainted with the word “eschatology”, it comes from the Greek eskhatos (“last”), Theo (“God”) and -logy (“the study of”). New Oxford American Dictionary defines it: “the part of theology concerned with death, judgment, and the final destiny of the soul and of humankind”—a broad term which includes end times prophecy. I think agnostic eschatology is often a smoke screen for, “Don’t try to convince me,” but some may earnestly believe it. Being honest about what we do and don’t know concerning God’s Word is a good trait, but agnostic eschatology is dangerous because it encourages hearers to apathy concerning a portion of God’s Word. Jesus said: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch? A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher” (Lk 6:39-40).
How does a person find clarity when conflicting teachings are swirling about? They go to the authoritative source of truth—God’s Word!
When Paul came to town and shared the gospel, the Bereans withheld immediate judgment. With eagerness, they searched the Scriptures to see if Paul’s testimony (about salvation in Christ) was true (Jn 5:39). The Holy Spirit illuminated His Word and many believed (Ac 17:10-12). I admire their love for the LORD and for the truth, and have tried to live my life this way.
For as long as I can remember, I believed Jesus could appear at any moment and take the Christians to heaven so they wouldn’t have to suffer during the horrible days of the great Tribulation. My parents don’t recall teaching me this, but nonetheless I learned it from a young age while growing up in the church.
An answered prayer to understand Jesus’ reply in Luke 17:37 caused me to doubt my Pre-Tribulation “Rapture” conviction. If you have not read it, I encourage you to take a short detour to my blog post, “Luke 17:37: The Carcasses, the Eagles, and the Taken” before continuing here.
God gave me a strong faith in the integrity of His Word since I was young. I had already learned how people can have wrong beliefs about the Bible, but the Word of God does not have error. I also had faith that God’s Word would provide clarity—it was just a matter of searching it.
“A Pre-Tribulation Rapture isn’t in Luke 17 or Matthew 24. If it exists, where is it?” I began to search the Scriptures.
I have prayed for you, dear reader (God knows who you are), that when you read the Scriptures I am about to share, the Holy Spirit would illumine your heart as He did mine.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, particularly verses 15-17, was the first passage that helped me. When you read it, what do you see about the timing of the gathering of the living? Said another way, when are those who are alive and remain caught up in the clouds?
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, NKJV
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
I noticed the Lord describes two groups of people—those who are alive and remain [in Christ] until the coming of the Lord, and those who are asleep in the Lord. Asleep, in this context, refers to physical death—a point clear from its use in 1 Th 4:13-14. Jesus also referred to Jairus’ dead daughter as “asleep” (Lk 8:49-56), and likewise, Lazarus (Jn 11:11-15).
I have highlighted the alive in gray and the dead in red. “Caught up” is translated from the Greek verb harpazo. The noun “rapture” derives from the Latin translation of harpazo: rapiemur or rapturo. The timing words I highlighted in yellow.
I saw the dead in Christ rise first before those who are alive and remain are caught up. Therefore, to understand when the living will be gathered to the Lord, we need to know when the dead rise.
Later, I read about the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6. For full context, verse 1 is the best place to begin.
Revelation 20:1-6, NKJV
20 1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
I noticed the first resurrection cannot be before the Tribulation, since it includes people who refused to worship the beast or his image, or receive his mark on their foreheads or on their hands (Rv 13:15-17; 14:9-13). Further, they rise to reign with Christ a thousand years while Satan is bound for a thousand years unable to deceive anyone. Satan will certainly be deceiving people up until Jesus returns in Revelation 19:19-21. So, our gathering is at His coming, after the [entire] Tribulation. Since the bodies of the slain (Rv 19:21) are a sign to us (Lk 17:37, Mt 24:28), the gathering of the living is also post-wrath.
I closed my Bible and praised the Lord for answering my prayer. Immediately I knew when I was older that I wanted to write down these verses (and others like them) in an orderly way to share them with others.
Nobody looks forward to the hard days described by the Bible, but I am convinced understanding/believing the basic timeline (post-Tribulation resurrection-gathering) is one key to being prepared to overcome in the Tribulation.
I don’t remember how long it actually took to see these things, but I think it was less than a month. If you are not convinced today, I encourage you to look deeper into the matter.
The Bereans also put time into their pursuit of truth. It says they “searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so” (Ac 17:11). They did not give up after reading one chapter, or one day—but they apparently kept searching every day until they reached a conclusion. I urge you not to trust anyone else’s journey/conclusions, but make your own by studying the authoritative truth source—the Holy Scriptures. It doesn’t matter if you’re six or 96—God wrote His Word to be understood by those who love the truth.
I will write frequently about end times prophecy here on Overcoming the Tribulation. If you would like, you can subscribe to receive my blog in your e-mail.
God bless you.
Thank you for sharing your testimony about how you found the truth. You made a fantastic point about the first resurrection involving those who were slain for refusing the Mark of the Beast and connecting that with 1 Thessalonians 4. I hadn’t thought of linking 1 Thessalonians 4 with Revelation 20 until now!
That’s because there’s no connection. The context of 1 Thess 4 has nothing to do with the tribulation. Paul is teaching the Thessalonian church that their deceased loved ones who were in Christ when they died will be resurrected at the same time as all believers who are alive at the time of Christ’s coming for the church. You have to read into it the second coming by incomplete totality transfer to connect Rev 20.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 says it is the coming of Christ. Christ is only coming once more. Check out Acts 3:20-21 and Hebrews 9:28. His second coming is shown in most majestic detail in Revelation 19:11-20:6. You assume two more comings. That is adding to Scripture. Nothing in Scripture tells He’s coming two more times. Some people say 1 Thessalonians 4:17 isn’t a coming, it’s just an appearing, but the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:15 rebukes that. And Acts 3:20-21 disputes that He leaves heaven at all until after the Tribulation. No one has ever suggested by comparing the details of the crucifixion accounts that Jesus was crucified four times. But people use this kind of logic (arguing from the absence of detail in one passage as opposed to another) about the coming of Christ all the time. Think about that.
Only if you borrow context from one passage and apply it to another, otherwise known as illegitimate totality transfer.
The context and detail of one passage often prohibit it from being taken as a parallel to another passage despite many similarities.
This is why the careful student will understand that Christ’s coming for His church is not the same event as His second advent. Does that mean He is coming twice? Well, not really. It depends on what is meant by “coming”. Nothing prohibits an understanding that His coming will be in two stages, or that the rapture is not THE coming.
Technically when Jesus comes for His church He is not coming TO the earth. Only the church will see Him. It can be described as a coming without violating the teaching that He will come in great power and glory when all the tribes of the earth will see Him.
Again, you are insisting that there are proof that texts which nullify this idea, but the larger narrative provides a context which allows for it. That larger narrative is that Jesus, in betrothing the Church, has set her apart from His overarching plan for the world and for Israel. He will “come” for His bride, but at that time He won’t be “coming” to finish His work with the world and Israel.
In the Answers section, I respond to the two stage argument, “Once in the Clouds, Once to the Mount of Olives.”
You don’t have a Biblically valid argument, but I understand that you think you do, so it’s time to agree to disagree and find another site to post on.
I’m confused. My question is simple. Will those that are saved be here during the entire tribulation? Part of the tribulation or after the tribulation?
Hi George. Christians will be here on earth for the entire Tribulation. The majority will be slain or apostatize, but some God will preserve alive throughout the whole period.
According to your argument, Zechariah 14 and Revelation 19 are two separate Second Comings. In Zechariah Jesus’ feet land on the Mount of Olives and it splits in two. In Revelation 19 He comes on a white horse with a sword coming out of His mouth.
Can you prove to me that when Jesus comes for His Church, that ONLY the Church will see Him? Or is this an assumption based on your a priori belief that somehow Paul speaks of a rapture prior to the tribulation (which he doesn’t)?
Jesus also comes at the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God, which lines up with the trumpets of Revelation. These trumpets are at the end of the tribulation period.
Parker – did you pause to think that God being who He is……He doesn’t have any need to send Jesus to gather people in a fictional Rapture scenario. As the Psalmist writes, “Selah.”
Seriously, it’s quite obvious that God could simply poof you off this earth if He indeed wanted to remove people prior to any tribulation/persecution. But that negates the plan that He has wrought out from the beginning. The only Truth in regard to people escaping is already thoroughly documented. The words of Jesus in Matthew 24 are explicit on this topic.
It is interesting that, for the 3 years Jesus invested in training 12 men, not one word is recorded about some mystery evacuation of those followers in order to avoid persecution. Weren’t they special? But he did discuss at length with the 12 on the topic of His leaving and Return, and on the great cost it would be to them to continue following Jesus. We know how it ended for all, and John being spared.
It begs the question- since Jesus stated that we will share in His suffering, how do followers of John Darby’s dogma on a “rapture” prior to tribulation expect to get by the suffering and arrive Heaven on a flowery bed of ease, as the old time song goes.
Isaac Watts penned this 300 years ago:
Am I a soldier of the cross,
A follow’r of the Lamb?
And shall I fear to own His cause,
Or blush to speak His name?
Must I be carried to the skies
On flow’ry beds of ease,
While others fought to win the prize,
And sailed through bloody seas?
Are there no foes for me to face?
Must I not stem the flood?
Is this vile world a friend to grace,
To help me on to God?
Sure I must fight if I would reign;
Increase my courage, Lord;
I’ll bear the toil, endure the pain,
Supported by Thy Word.
Thy saints in all this glorious war
Shall conquer, though they die;
They see the triumph from afar,
By faith’s discerning eye.
When that illustrious day shall rise,
And all Thy armies shine
In robes of vict’ry through the skies,
The glory shall be Thine.
Parker – it’s simple, and I encourage you to envision yourself in Jesus’ company, sitting quietly at his scarred feet, and asking Him what suffering you might be called on to endure.
Your are correct. ♥️
Kindly log on to repent and prepare the way.organization
Hi Robert,
Jesus warned us about false teachers and false prophets who would deceive people (Mt 7:15-20, Mt 24:4, 11, 23-26; 1 Tim 4:1, 2 Pe 2, 1 Jn 1:4). “The Repentance and Holiness Ministry” sounds wholesome, but it is not biblical. Its leader Dr. Owuor’s deceptions are built on the foundation of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, which is a false teaching in itself. My website gives many reasons why. Owuor on video has made blasphemous statements, which you can easily find if you do an Internet search. There are also other issues, but these should be enough to cause any follower of Christ to run. I urge you to seek truth with your whole heart in this matter.
I don’t know what you believe about Jesus, or what gospel you have received. If it’s not the Biblical Jesus and the Biblical gospel, your foundational need is to be born again. I invite you to visit my Beliefs page, which shares the story of Scripture. I also encourage you to leave Owuor behind.
I have deleted your link because this organization is not in line with my beliefs and I would hate any of my readers to be ensnared.
Annette
I have always doubted the pre-tribulation rapture I hear Christians putting their hope in. And I always thought, why are pastors and teachers not PREPARING US to go thru these hard times, instead of tickling our ears with fairy tales. We need to be focused and prepared!
So thank you!!!!!!
Hi Jan. Wonderful! You’re welcome. I know I’m not the only person who tries to persuade folks of this. I pray more pastors/leaders will wake up, too, because I’m scared their faith won’t endure if they persist in teaching/accommodating a lie. Paul said he’s guiltless of the blood of all men because he didn’t hesitate to teach the full counsel of God (Acts 20), and warned them night and day with tears. I feel like the time is so short to wake up before the Tribulation is upon us. It can be discouraging to watch the majority of people so unwilling to engage. I hope this website/YouTube (YouTube.com/overcomingthetribulation) is something you will feel good to share with your Christian friends, especially personally and with your own testimony, as that matters a great deal to your friends. God bless you!
You make a good case, but I still believe you’re wrong to conclude Pre-Trib to be a false teaching. I don’t see enough evidence here to be convinced. From what I gather, you’re basing your claim on Revelation 20:1-6.
This claims the 1st Resurrection after the millennial kingdom. But what about Jesus, was He not the First to be Resurrected?
I Corinthians 15:23-24
To my understanding, what Revelation is describing is the resurrection of those who will be martyred during the Tribulation. But of course, they aren’t the first to be Resurrected because Jesus Christ was the first. So what is John saying here? And why would Christ descend (as 1Thessalonians 4 descibes) when He is already here after the millennial kingdom? I recognize the 1st Resurrection to be that for the saints, and the second for those who perish. I believe that 1 Thessalonians 4 and Revelation 20 are describing two separate events. What if the 1st Resurrection is broken up into 3 separate moments in time. What is the significance of Jesus being dead 3 days?
1.Jesus is Resurrected
2. Harpazo (dead IN CHRIST first)
3. Resurrection of the Martyrs which concludes the FIRST RESURRECTION, as apposed to the second death. Again, maybe you’re willing to just start accusing people of heresy, I however am not. I don’t think you or anyone else for that matter can jump to that conclusion when there are reborn individuals on both sides of this argument. That by itself, is heresy.
Hi Dwayne,
Thank you for reading my post and taking the time to leave a comment.
In this article, I am saying that Pre-Trib is false teaching because the context of the first resurrection, from Rv 20:1-6, is after the Tribulation. 1 Th 4:15-17 teach the dead in Christ will rise first before those who are alive and remain will be caught up to the clouds to meet Him in the air. If 1 Th 4:15-17 were pre-Trib, then there would be a resurrection of believers prior to the first resurrection, and by definition, that makes no sense. Pre-Trib teachers say that the first resurrection happens in multiple phases – the first phase before the Tribulation, and the second phase at His coming, but there isn’t a Biblical basis for that.
Yes, Jesus is the first to be resurrected, but when Revelation 20 is speaking of “the first resurrection”, it is the first resurrection of ordinary humans. I am not saying the first resurrection is after the millennium–that’s when the [second] resurrection will be. The people involved in the first resurrection reign with Christ a thousand years while Satan is bound a thousand years unable to deceive anyone.
You asked, “And why would Christ descend (as 1 Thessalonians 4 describes) when He is already here after the millennial kingdom)?” That is not at all what I am saying. He is coming on the clouds after the great tribulation, as described in Mt 24:29-31. That’s the context of the first resurrection. Note His powerful return in Rv 19:11-21. And then He will reign those thousand years, with Satan bound, and afterwards, when Satan is released for a time to test the inhabitants of the earth.
I wrote this post because it is my testimony. There are many other passages of Scripture which contradict a pre-Tribulation gathering, but these were the ones opened my eyes. Other passages you might look at are the parable of the wheat and tares (Mt 13:24-30, 36-43), the parable of the dragnet, 2 Th 1:3-10, 2 Th 2:1-8; the timing from 1 Cor 15 (23, 51-54); Rm 11:11-15.
I don’t know if you’ve seen it, but I have a page of articles answering popular arguments: https://overcomingthetribulation.com/get-answers/
The first ten of them are used for pre-Trib. I invite you to check them out prayerfully.
Being born again does not insulate us from believing false teachings–the Bible gives us many warnings. Just because many people believe and/or teach something doesn’t mean they have a Biblically viable case (2 Tim 4:3-4).
God bless,
Annette
The biblical basis for understanding the 1st resurrection to be in three phases comes from the Jewish harvest process:
To understand the New Testament and all of the spiritual and eschatological implications therein, it is necessary for a believer to be very familiar with the Old Testament prophecies and types. In the Jewish religion that God ordained for Israel there were customs, feasts, festivals, and a very complex liturgical calendar governing it all.
In these things are pictures of Messiah, and pictures of God’s nature and plan.
One example is the comparison of resurrection to harvest. We see this in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 when Paul refers to Jesus as the first fruits.
The harvest was in three phases: first fruits, which was consecrated to God, the main harvest, which was gathered all at once and taken together into the barn, and then the gleanings, which happened after the main harvest and was the leftovers, essentially stripping the field of the rest of the ripe grain.
Jesus resurrection is typified by the first fruits, the rapture of the church is typified by the main harvest, and the gleanings will be everyone who dies in Christ after the rapture up through the end of the Millennial Kingdom.
Then comes the end, as Paul says.
As far as the “taken and left” in Luke 17 and Matthew 24 go, that is describing the separation of people to the sheep and goat judgement at the end of the tribulation. Both passages are directed toward Israel in the tribulation, not the church.
Hi Parker. I understand that you have been taught this three-tier harvest, but it is not Biblical. The context of our gathering is after the dead rise first at His coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), and that is called “the first resurrection” in Revelation 20. We cannot take an eraser to the timing God provides us because of some extra-biblical teaching. We grow together until the harvest, when the tares–the wicked–are gathered first–that is, removed (killed). (The Parable of the Wheat and Tares, Matthew 13.) They are the taken like in the flood of Noah’s day, and everyone else is left alive. The context of 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 is the second coming, too.
So what you are saying is that, based on your understanding of the parable of the wheat and the tares, when Christ returns the first thing He is going to do is take all the wicked away to judgement, and everyone else left on the earth after that will be the righteous?
When does the rapture happen, then, relative to this separating?
You are assuming that the harvest is in reference to a rapture or resurrection. About the Samaritans, Jesus said to His disciples, “You say four months until the harvest, but I say, Look the fields are already white for harvest.” Harvest can be reference to the salvation of souls.
You are actually incorrect about the three harvests. These are the three harvests.
The first harvest is the Barley Harvest at the Feast of Firstfruits
The second harvest is the Wheat harvest at Pentecost.
The third harvest is the Fruit harvest during Tabernacles.
The gleanings have to do with the corners of EACH of these three harvest being left for the poor, widow and orphans.
In fact, in the Book of Ruth. during the barley and wheat harvest, Boaz’ servants purposely left gleanings for ruth to pick up. And guess what?! After being on the threshing floor (a type of tribulation) with Boaz, Ruth brought grain to Naomi. This is a picture of the Church bringing the Gospel to desolate, barren Israel in the end times. Sorry, we won’t be raptured before our witness and testimony is complete.
p.s. Pretribbers think they will be raptured on the Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is NOT a harvest, so your theory does not apply. The fall harvest happens of Tishri 15, which interestingly is after the Day of Atonement, which Pretribbers believe is the Second Coming.
I quite agree with you, Dwayne. In Israel at that time, a harvest had three stages: The firstfruits (Jesus being the firstfruits), the general harvest (the Church at the Rapture), and the gleanings (which would correspond to the Tribulation martyrs). Rev 20 is very specific that those referred to in that passage are limited to resurrection of those who were beheaded for their witness to Jesus and had not taken the mark of the beast during the Tribulation. There are millions in the Church who have already died, but were certainly not beheaded and had no opportunity to even reject the mark of the beast. This passage clearly speaks of a limited category of believers who lived only during the Tribulation, not those who died over the last 2000 years. (One can be a participant in the First Resurrection, but at different times–just as Jesus was.)
I disagree that the first fruits is only Jesus. Revelation chapter 14 tells us that the 144 000 are also the first fruits, given to God and the Lamb.
The martyrs are obviously the first resurrection (Rev 20), and all the rest of the dead are resurrected at the great white throne judgement. Any gleanings would come from the nation’s who are left on the earth during the millennium, who must give tribute or not receive rain in their respective nation’s, and who side with Satan (or don’t) when he is released before the great white throne judgement.
No other teaching is consistent with all inspired scripture on end-times!
It depends what we are talking about. Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:23). The 144,000 are “firstfruits” of something else–likely referring to Israel’s last day harvest of salvation. “These are the ones who not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God” (Revelation 14:4-5). I believe most of the 144,000 will survive (except the two witnesses) until the second coming of Jesus.
The 144,000 are firstfruits (matthew 24:52-53) of 1st resurrection, rev 20:4 is part of 1st resurrection. 2 kinds of resurrection, to eternal life and to eternal damnation
Hi fromEast. I tend to believe the 144,000 mostly do not die, but are chief among the alive and remain at His coming. They are marked on foreheads to protect them from them the plagues which will come on the earth in the seventh seal (and then implicitly referenced in the fifth trumpet, Revelation 9:4), whereas the great multitude from every people group die as martyrs. I believe the two witnesses are probably part of the 144,000 and they die in the second woe (Revelation 11:14), which is the sixth trumpet (Revelation 8:12-13) of the seventh seal (Revelation 8:1-2), but besides these individuals, I’m not sure that they will die. God bless.
One other thing I noticed is, the Scripture in Revelation 20 describes this resurrection to happen AFTER the millennial kingdom. However, post tribulation theology teaches the rapture happening after the Tribulation; and before the millennial kingdom. So which is it?
You misunderstand it. The first resurrection is at the beginning of the millennial kingdom. The ones included in the first resurrection reign with Him a thousand years. The [second] resurrection is after the millennium.
If the rapture happens at the second coming, you have a serious problem with a major teaching about the millennial kingdom.
In the millennial kingdom there will be children born. We know that in our resurrected bodies we will not marry or be given in marriage, but will be like the angels. Resurrected people don’t reproduce.
If, as post-tribulationists believe, the rapture happens at Jesus’ second coming, the that means ALL believers alive at that time will receive their resurrected bodies, and then Jesus will destroy everyone else to prepare for the millennial kingdom.
There would then only be resurrected people in the millennial kingdom, and since resurrected people can’t have children, there would be no children borne during the 1,000 year reign of Christ.
But the Bible clearly says there will be children borne. In fact, so many that the earth will be filled again. And when Satan is released at the end of the 1,000 years he will deceive many of them.
Who is having these babies if the rapture happens at the second coming?
I do not have a serious problem about the millennial kingdom. The Scriptures never teach that ALL unconverted at Jesus’ coming die. Actually, the contrast is taught: not all the unbelievers Jesus’ coming will die. For example, if you read in Zechariah 12:10-13:6, some Israelites turn to Christ when He comes back, and Jesus forgives them. Also, Zechariah 14:16-19 speaks of Gentiles who also survived His coming, and afterwards worship Him. And these are not people who were saved beforehand, because they clearly have the ability to sin (verses 17-19 speak of them sinning in the millennium). Ezekiel 38-39, Psalm 2, Isaiah 2, Isaiah 4 (reading Isaiah 3 helps with context), and other places show some unbelievers will survive and be converted after He comes.
Zechariah 14:16 does not say that some people who went against Jerusalem will survive. It says that PEOPLE who are FROM those nations who survive the tribulation will make annual pilgrimages to Jerusalem to worship Jesus.
Jesus will destroy all the armies who are against Jerusalem at His Second coming. The people who are left alive after that will be the believing Israel (you will not see me again until you say ‘Blessed is He who comes into the name of the Lord’”), and both believing and non-believing Gentiles (nations).
The sheep and goat judgement is where Jesus separates the believing and non-believing Gentiles (sheep and goats). He does this according to how they treated the Jews (Matthew 25:31-46).
During the Tribulation, the evidence that a person is a believer in Jesus, or a saint, will be how they treated Israel. That’s what the sheep and goat judgement is about.
Because the tribulation is about Israel, not the church. If the church were present then the criteria for this judgement would be whether a person had believed on Jesus and been indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Another example of the unique ministry of the Holy Spirit during the tribulation.
And based on what we read in Jesus description of this sheep and goat judgement, it is happening prior to or simultaneously with the initiation of the millennial kingdom. (When the Son of Man comes in great glory… He will sit on His glorious throne… to those on His right He will say, “Enter into the kingdom”…)
The kingdom begins with the separation of everyone left on the earth after Jesus destroys Antichrist and his armies. There will be no unbelievers who suddenly convert after Jesus returns and then enter the Millennial kingdom. The tribes of the earth will mourn when He returns. People will have taken the mark of the beast and seal d their eternal fate. All the options will have been exhausted at that point.
Parker, I didn’t say that some people who went against Jerusalem survive. You’re being disingenuous in your attempts to undermine me. All I said was some people survive His coming–of course I was not talking about people in the army that goes up to attack Jerusalem. Please stop posting on my site. Thanks.
I’ll honor your request and post no more.
But you need to think very hard about what you’re teaching.
If the rapture is the same event as the second coming, then all believers, including all the Jews who convert and cry out to Jesus (which is what initiates His return) will be translated into their glorified bodies.
Anyone who doesn’t believe at that time will be gathered together and cats into eternal punishment.
Then all you have left are the resurrected, glorified saints in their eternal bodies.
There’s no one else left. And glorified bodies don’t reproduce, so there’s no one to populate the earth during the millennium.
It the Bible clearly teaches the earth will be replenished and filled with people during the millennium.
It’s a glaring inconsistency that post-trib has no sound answer for. Do you want to show people what the Bible says or what you believe?
What would God have you do?
I assure you, Parker, I’ve thought very hard about what I’m teaching. The Scriptures do not teach that every single person who isn’t born again will die at His coming. Zechariah 12-14 speak of Jews and Gentiles who survive His coming, and can repent and follow Him in the millennium. Psalm 2, Isaiah 2-4, and Ezekiel 38-39, for example, also describe survivors of the nations living on into the millennium. There are more passages besides. That’s a sound answer.
God would have me to teach His Word, which I am doing. You have free will as to what to believe and understanding of the Scriptures comes from the Holy Spirit. Seek Him with your whole heart and try to live submitted to the Holy Spirit and I will do the same. Bye now.
The scriptures clearly say that there will be nation’s left alive after Armageddon, who will have to offer tribute to God, at Jerusalem, or they will not receive rain. They are clearly few in number after the bowls of God’s wrath, but clearly survive and procreate over the Millennium. These would be the gleanings, ‘mopping up’ all peoples before the Great White Throne Judgement, at the Second resurrection (Revelation 20).
You are correct here Anne.
Ok. So what about the one who restrains? Who do you say this is? Scripture says that the man of sin cannot be revealed until the restrainer is taken away. I believe this to be the Holy Spirit. If so, then why would God forsake us by taking away His Holy Spirit from those who are already in Christ. Theres no Scriptural basis for God taking away from us that which has already reconciled us with God; why would God give us the gift of the Holy Spirit upon being born again only to take it away from us when we need Him the most?
I do not believe the restrainer to be the Holy Spirit. I have an article about this passage; I think it will answer your question. https://overcomingthetribulation.com/church-gone-before/
God would never take the Holy Spirit from anyone unless the person blasphemes Him. Also, I hope Mk 13:11 will encourage you.
God bless.
In your article regarding the identity of the restrainer, you neglected to mention that whoever the restrainer is, the restrainer is also an “it”. By that I mean Paul refers to the restrainer in the masculine and the neuter.
Of the possible identities of the restrainer that have been suggested, the only one that comports to both a neuter and masculine identity is the Holy Spirit.
Keep in mind, too, that the Man of Sin is Satan’s man of the hour. The spirit of lawlessness is already in the world, only He who now restrains (spiritual lawlessness) will do so until He is taken out of the way. Angels do not restrain sin, the Holy Spirit does. And when God removed His church, the Spirit who indwells the church will be removed in the sense that the ministry of indwelling that the Holy Spirit is currently performing will cease, and His ministry will revert to a pre-church one. Prior to the church, the Holy Spirit came upon people to empower them, but He did not indwelling them to sanctify them.
Angels restrain evil. We are given view of this, for example, in Daniel 10:13. The angel was not able to Daniel right away because he and Michael were engaged in a battle with the prince of the kingdom of Persia. The Holy Spirit only exerts power over sin in life a follower of Christ who does not resist His leading. His role is not to stop godless from sinning. The Greek does not imply “it”.
Mark 13:11 and Joel 2:28-32 speak of the Holy Spirit working powerfully in the context of great tribulation. Of course, He empowers the two witnesses also, and they are here until the sixth trumpet of the seventh seal.
God will never remove His Church. Whoever the restrainer is, I explain in that article how the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 cannot refer to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
Daniel 10:13 is an example of a fallen Angel preventing God’s messenger from accessing Daniel, and Michael coming to help.
It has nothing to do with the retraining of sin.
Michael himself prefers not to battle against Satan, as we see in Jude 1:9-
“But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.””
Jude 1:9
Michael doesn’t rebuke Satan himself but says, “The Lord rebuke you.”
This lends more weight to the argument that the One who restrains the Man of Sin is not Michael, but the Lord Himself.
The Holy Spirit is never removed from the earth, only His indwelling ministry ceases. He will continue to come upon people, and as we see from the 144,000 rather than being sealed by the indwelling of the Lord they will be sealed on their foreheads.
The language regarding the 144,000 and throughout Revelation clearly denotes a different ministry of the Holy Spirit during the tribulation. One that is of the same pre-New Covenant character the He had before Jesus and His church were betrothed in the upper room.
You are also mistaken about the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8. Paul is explaining how the Day of the Lord will come, and reassuring the church that they will not be present when it does. This harmonizes with all of Paul’s teachings about the rapture and the nature and purpose of the Day of the Lord.
As is common with people who reject pre-tribulationalism, you prefer to place a lot of burden on proof texts and neglect the truth of the broader narrative which provides the context for a right understanding.
Parker,
God’s messenger was bound up in a spiritual battle. He doesn’t have to judge or rebuke Satan to battle Satan. In Revelation 12, Michael and his angels fight against Satan and his angels, and the latter are kicked out of heaven for good, and they are cast down to earth, where they do as much damage as they can in the short time they have left.
The idea that the Holy Spirit’s indwelling ministry ceases sounds blasphemous. Mark 13:11 and Joel 2:28-32 show definitively that He will be present and very active in the lives of His saints during that time.
You are mistaken about 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 and Pre-Tribulation Rapture in general. Only the Holy Spirit can change that, but He doesn’t force Himself on anyone.
I have battled with the pre-trib view of 2 Thess Chapter 2. When I read this 2nd chapter at face value, in the light of Matthew 24, to harmonize – I always come up with the same result. The Second Coming and the gathering of the elect/saints are mentioned in one breath, the exact same words are used. It seems clear to me even though I leave space for some good tension. And the scripture does not give any indication that these are separate events with a seven year gap. Would it not say so if it was a 7 year gap?
Then you have the matter of the falling away (desertion/defection/apostate) vs departure where pre-trb brethren will say the 1st 7 translations used “departure”, which I think is in of itself OK, but “departure” does not mean rapture. That argument seems very weak to me personally. I did enjoy reading the threads, so thank you for discussing such crucial points. I think the Lord does want us to understand and we must sharpen each other as iron sharpens iron. But with love.
Hi brother. I have an article/audio recording/video on 2 Thessalonians 2 also. I invite you to check it out. Maybe something in it will help a little! Agreed—departure isn’t rapture. I wrote this article to respond to the common Pre-Trib assertion argued from 2 Thessalonians 2:7, “The Church Must Be Gone Before the Man of Lawlessness is Revealed”:
https://overcomingthetribulation.com/church-gone-before/
God bless!
If God wanted to define the restrained for us, He would have done so, as He defined all other ‘actors’in the depiction of the end-times.
Anyone who adamantly defines the “restrainer “is calling himself/herself a prophet, and should be judged as such; everything they say concerning God/endtimes etc must be proven to occur. Otherwise they are a false prophet!
Thank you for your insight. I do agree that only one can be right. But I don’t believe the matter is salvific, because then we’re adding works to Grace. God bless.
Salvific is a blanket term which implies that a person can lose or miss salvation due to apostacy or a false gospel preached. Therefore there are many more concerns than works /grace that come into play.
This topic (resurrection destination and timing) is ‘salvific’ since Jesus clearly emphasises the sure destruction of those who take the mark due to deception and thinking that Christ’s coming is delayed leading to discouragement and acceptance of the false prophet, mark and worship of the image of the beast.
Obviously, since Revelation was given us by Jesus Christ himself, we are informed of the importance of understanding end-time events, their deception and dangers!
Concerning the first resurrection and Jesus. What about Matthew 27:50-53? Does it have to do with the first resurrection?
Thanks!
Hi Mary Ellen,
Thanks for your comment! I do not believe Matthew 27:50-53 has to do with the first resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, speaking of our resurrection, says: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.” This speaks of our resurrection happening at His second coming, which of course has not occurred yet. These verses about people coming back to life when Jesus died are interesting, but they don’t give us a lot. Did they die again, like Lazarus, Dorcas, Eutychus, and others? What kind of body did they receive, the same they had at death or a glorified body? We are supposed to receive glorified bodies at His [second] coming (see 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and Philippians 3:20-21). Because that timing wasn’t met at His crucifixion, that’s why I believe Matthew 27:50-53 is not part of the “first resurrection.” As you probably know, there are two resurrections in Revelation 20: the first at His coming, at the beginning of the thousand years, and the other after the millennium and the final rebellion (Revelation 20:12-15). The latter, for most at least, will be a resurrection of condemnation (see John 5:25-29). It’s also good to remember that the first resurrection is part of Christ’s coming, which begins in Revelation 19:11 and continues to 20:6. Originally, there were no chapter breaks or verse numbers. They are helpful, but it’s good to be reminded of this. It’s important because 1 Corinthians 15:23 says our resurrection is at His coming.
God bless you!
The First Resurrection is not just part of Christ’s 2nd coming as you state here. The First Resurrection began when Christ was resurrected from the dead and fulfilled the Feast of Firstfruits (being “the firstfruits from the dead”). He is the firstfruits of the First Resurrection, which, just as in the natural harvest of their grains or other produce, is a promise of “more to come.” In fact, it follows the harvest pattern of Israel in Jesus’ time: firstfruits, general harvest, and gleanings (which were left for the poor). This corresponds to Jesus, Church, and Trib martyrs. And note that the Trib martyrs do NOT go up into the air (nothing is said about being caught up in Rev 20). They simply are raised to live and reign with Christ–and go directly into the Messianic Kingdom. BUT, they are still part of the First Resurrection, which simply means the resurrection of the righteous.
Hi Ruth,
Thank you for commenting. I do not agree that the first resurrection isn’t a part of Christ’s coming. 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 says our resurrection is at His coming, and Revelation 19:11-21 describes His coming. No resurrection is mentioned in chapter 19, but if one keeps reading (there were no chapters originally), we see the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6. Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection, but the first resurrection as used in Revelation 20 is just ordinary believers. I do not believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture for many reasons besides the ones I gave in this post. I have articles about many of them. Why should Jesus come twice more and have two resurrections of believers? (Hebrews 9:28 says Jesus is coming a second time.) I do not believe the first resurrection is limited to the Tribulation beheaded, because the resurrection hope of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 is for all the dead in Christ at His coming. An absence of detail in a particular passage does not mean there is a contradiction. God bless you.
Hi, Annette.
I agree with your statement ” I do not agree that the first resurrection isn’t a part of Christ’s coming.” I think you missed the word “just” in my first sentence. The First Resurrection isn’t JUST at Christ’s 2nd Coming. The First Resurrection began with the resurrection of Jesus (who was the first fruits of that resurrection). Because His resurrection is separated in time from the resurrection of those in Christ (the Church), there is no reason that the Tribulation saints (or the gleanings of the harvest) cannot be resurrected at a separate time from both Jesus and the Church saints (at the end of the Trib)–and still be part of the First Resurrection. Even the Two Witnesses are part of the First Resurrection at the middle of the Tribulation (separated in time from other believers).
Here is a good quote from Bible Study Tools (author not listed, but many footnotes included in article):
The use of first to describe a resurrection which follows after Christ’s resurrection, gives us an initial clue that first cannot denote absolute chronological order—as that of a single event which occurs before all others. By this time, Christ has been resurrected for almost two thousand years, yet Scripture calls this subsequent event “the first resurrection.” It is first from the perspective of its priority : those who participate in the resurrection of life rather than the resurrection of condemnation (John John 5:28-29). It is also first relative to the Millennial Kingdom since the subsequent resurrection will not be until one thousand years later. Christ was the first man to rise in the category which is the first resurrection:
I understood what you said, but I just don’t agree. I don’t believe a multi-stage first resurrection (first resurrection does not include Christ), but you must or you would become like me.
While I agree that the first resurrection is of the righteous, Revelation chapters 7 and 14:4, and chapter20, make it clear that the firstfruits are of the 144 000 redeemed, sealed and pure, and also the two olive branches (Zechariah 4, Revelation 11, the two witnesses, and the two lampstands.
These describe the character, role and fate of this group who are granted the first resurrection, (as opposed to the second), and reign and rule with Christ during the Millennium in Jerusalem.
If the two witnesses were two people, they would not be called the two olive branches (Zechariah 3and Revelation 11:4),and the two lampstands, (which Jesus defines as churches in Revelation 1:20).
Zechariah 3-4, referring to the two olive trees, the two anointed ones, are about Joshua and Zerubbabel. I believe the two witnesses of Revelation are likewise two men. Having them be churches in Revelation 11 doesn’t make sense to me.
Why doesn’t it make sense? Most non-dispensational commentaries on Revelation identify them as the witnessing Church. It may no make sense to you because you are missing the literal connections throughout Revelation and the rest of Scripture, and the theme of witness or testimony throughout the writings of John. Chapter 11 begins with God measuring the sanctuary and it worshippers. There is a literal connection between the measured sanctuary and the holy city, the New Jerusalem. Revelation begins with John as a representative of the Church who “bears record of the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus Christ…” Those who hear and keep this prophecy are blessed. The martyrs under the altar (symbolized by the 144,000 firstfruits) are there because of “the Word of God and the Testimony which they held.” This is a clear description of the Church. In the Old Testament, the Testimony of God was written on two tablets of stone. In the New Testament, the Testimony of God is written on tablets of the human heart. We are God’s witnesses who carry the Testimony within us. In chapter 10 John is told that he must “prophesy again” to many nations, peoples tongues and tribes. Chapter 11 describes the Church as witnesses, two Lampstands (previously identified as the churches). They prophesy for 1260 days, a symbolic number synonymous with the 42 months. (Later we are told that the spirit of prophecy is the Testimony of Jesus Christ.) When the Church has finished its Testimony, the beast will rise and overcome us, a time synonymous with the trampling of the holy city, and the great tribulation mentioned by Jesus. But we will be vindicated and will conquer through our deaths, overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our Testimony. Our death, then, is the very means by which we conquer, just as Jesus overcame.
Throughout Revelation we are described as priests and kings, those who hold the Testimony of Jesus, martyrs, saints, servants, a sanctuary, a holy city, a bride, a heavenly city, witnesses and prophets.
The souls under the altar cry out for vengeance and vindication on those who martyred them. An angel takes the prayers of the saints, mixes them with incense (identified elsewhere as the prayers of the saints rising up to God as a sweet aroma. And actually, it is the aroma of the burnt offering, the presenting of our bodies as living sacrifices.) and coals from the altar, and casts them to the earth. The trumpet judgments, then, are a response to our prayers for vindication. These parallel the pronouncements of the two witnesses. Our prayers and our Testimony are fire, and this people wood. And they are symbolically consumed (Jeremiah 5:14) by our testimony. As Paul says, we are the aroma of life to some, but to others the aroma of death. The sanctuary and the holy city at the beginning of chapter 11 do not refer to earthly Jerusalem. We are the Temple and the sanctuary and the worshippers who worship in spirit and truth. Though our souls are measured and protected, our bodies are given over to death. As Paul says, we are considered as sheep led to the slaughter. We are to take up our cross, and those who seek to save their lives will lose them. In the last chapters of Revelation, we see those who are measured. They are a holy city, a bride, 12,000 stadia on each side, and just a high, with a wall 144 cubits thick. Of course, this alludes to the 144,000, a symbolic number for the people of God.
There is an interesting typology in the Old Testament. Elijah builds an altar of twelve stones (representing the 144,000). He places the wood in order ( in the same way Abraham place the wood in order). He pours water over the wood (a symbol of the Spirit). At the evening sacrifice (a picture of the tribulation) fire falls down from heaven, consuming the altar, the water, and even licking up the water under the altar, a clear references to the tongues of fire at Pentecost. The 144,000 then, become burnt offerings unto the Lord, the Firstfruits unto God. In Psalm 22:14, David speaks of his soul being poured out like water, alluding to the souls under the altar (establishing a literary connection between Elijah’s sacrifice and the souls under the altar in Revelation). And it is in this way, by becoming a burnt offering unto God, that Elijah defeats the prophets of Baal. And it is in this way, by becoming a burnt offering unto God, that the 144,000 overcome the False prophet and the Beast.
Revelation was not meant to be interpreted literally. Only by seeing the hundred of allusions and literary connections to the rest of Scripture can anyone begin to understand it. Few understand Revelation because few have a deep knowledge of Scripture. (For example, there is a literary connection between the Samaritan woman and the Harlot Mystery Babylon. The Harlot sits on many waters. The Samaritan woman comes to a well to draw water. The Harlot sits of seven mountains. The Samaritan woman worships on a mountain. The mountains are also kings, and heads, and husbands. For the Harlot, five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come, but will remain a little while. For the Samaritan woman, she has had five husbands, one is not her husband, and she has just met the one who will come. And He will remain a little while, for two days.) There is also a literary connection between the two witnesses and the disciples. Jesus sends His disciples out two by two as witnesses. The Samaritans do not receive the disciples because Jesus’ face is set toward Jerusalem. James and John as Jesus to command fire to fall from heaven to consume them as Elijah did, but Jesus rebukes them. James and John were named Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder. In Revelation chapter 10, we have seven thunders speaking just prior to the episode of the two witnesses.
“Most non-dispensational commentaries on Revelation identify them as the witnessing Church. It may no make sense to you because you are missing the literal connections throughout Revelation and the rest of Scripture, and the theme of witness or testimony throughout the writings of John.” That’s really not the issue, okay? You and many others may think things are are symbolic that aren’t supposed to be, and I may think things are literal that aren’t supposed to be, but this is not fair debating. It comes across as patronizing. Everything that happens around their death is presented in a very literal way, and that’s how I will choose to take it, unless I live long enough to see that two literal witnesses don’t appear.
The Firstfruits, main harvest and gleanings were all part of the same resurrection, from the same field (a symbol of the world). There are three resurrections, the Barley harvest, and the Wheat harvest in the spring, and the Fruit harvest in the fall. Each of these has a first fruit harvest, a main harvest and a gleaning, which are the corners of the field which are left for the poor. Read the story of Ruth and you will find that Ruth gleaned in the fields of Boaz DURING the main harvest. She also brought these gleanings to Naomi, six measures worth, AFTER being on the threshing floor, which is a type of the tribulation. And there is ONE harvest during the fall, at the Feast of Tabernacles. Since Pretribbers have invented the concept of the “tribulation saint,” there is no reason to believe that these are multiple harvests during the tribulation. Since the Book of Revelation portrays saints during the tribulation, and since you’ve already decided that the Church can’t be in the tribulation, you must assign these to a separate category. But since your premise is incorrect, so is your conclusion. And you try to make the claim that since the martyrs in Revelation 20 do not “go up,” they can’t be the Church, but missed the fact that there is no mention of where or how they reign, no mention of a Millennial Temple or sacrifices, and no mention of Jerusalem or Israel. You merely assume that these things must be, but they are neither stated nor even implied. It is the same argument from silence that you use with the so-called tribulation saints. There is no mention of the word “church’ in main body of Revelation, so you insist that this is evidence that the Church is missing, but have no problem assuming that all kinds of things happen during this thousand year period, even when none of them are mentioned. You want to have your cake and eat it, too.
The birth of a baby is a symbol of the resurrection, a symbol of the exodus of God’s people from the womb of the earth. There are two main stages of a birth. The first stage is called the “crowning.” It begins with the appearance of the HEAD. The second stage is the appearance of the BODY. Just as Paul says, Now Christ is risen from the dead and is become the Firstfruits of them which sleep…but every man in his order: Christ the Firstfruits, and then they which are His at His Coming (Parousia). The resurrection at His Coming INCLUDES the main harvest AND the gleanings. There can be NO OTHER resurrection apart from His Body. Paul says, In Adam ALL die. Even so IN CHRIST ALLl will be made alive. To be IN Christt is to be a part of His Body, the Church. But somehow, you think some will be made alive apart from Christ, apart from His indwelling Holy Spirit, who IS LIFE. It was the Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead and the same Spirit that gives life to our mortal bodies. What gives life to the so-called tribulation saints after the Holy Spirit is supposedly “taken out of the way” at the supposed Pretrib rapture? You cannot separate eschatology from soteriology and ecclesiology. When your soteriology and ecclesiology are wrong, so is your eschatology. In Adam all die, because all have sinned. In Christ ALL are made alive. And that, at His Parousia. Jesus is the FIRSBORN of a new creation. To be IN Christ is to be made part of the new creation. Through faith we are united with Christ in His death and resurrection. Those who are still IN Adam are dead in sin and transgression. When the new creations comes and heaven and earth are passed away, what happens to those who are not IN Christ and are still part of the old creation in Adam, dead in sin and transgression?
Jesus said plainly that there is ONE resurrection on the LAST DAY. He also said to Nicodemus, a leader of Israel, that unless a man is born again He cannot see the Kingdom of God. Yet, Pretribbers insist that Israel WILL see the Kingdom apart from the indwelling Spirit that unites them to Christ’s Body. Interesting, to say the least.
Thank you for all your research and diligence in putting this study together. I am 77, the son of a preacher, and all my life, I had been taught that the rapture would come at the middle of the 7 year peace period, before the beginning of the great tribulation. It wasn’t until I began to study the scriptures more carefully and persistently re reading the New Testament many times, that I finally saw the light when reading Mathew 24:29-31. “Immediately after the tribulation of those days”
Thanks, Dale. I am glad God opened your eyes! I know it’s harder when so much time has gone by, but nothing is impossible with God!
That would be for the Jews and Gentiles at the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement when Jesus comes with his Wife to the Earth and receives the rest of those who are in him. This is at the end of the Trib. That does not take away from the fulfillment of those who were ready by rebirth; and were taken and glorified with Jesus when we fulfilled the Feast of Trumpets, at the start of the Trib.
People need to learn and study and understand that Jesus fulfills feasts and they provide the order of events.
Cheers
No one will be taken and glorified before or at the start of the Tribulation.
I have a question!it I know that we would be present through tribulation as it even states the beast has authority to conquer. Although you wrote post wrath is when the resurrection happens..it says many times that wrath is only for the wicked, so how does that work?
Hi Miss Chriss. That’s a good question. What I see in Scripture is that the believers who are still alive in the time of God’s wrath—the seventh seal—if they persist in abiding in Christ, they will be shielded alive supernaturally. An example of this is in Revelation 9:4, during the plague of the fifth trumpet. Also, Jesus exhorts believers in the sixth bowl of God’s wrath and He is basically urging them to continue to abide in Him, lest [they apostatize and] His coming will be to them as a thief. God shielded the Israelites in Egypt from the 4th – 10th plagues.
I have a few other articles that deal with wrath and the contrast between abiding believers and the rest:
https://overcomingthetribulation.com/parable-wheat-tares/
https://overcomingthetribulation.com/wont-suffer-wrath/
https://overcomingthetribulation.com/day-of-lord-wrath/
Also, this is a study about what “Like A Thief” means in Jesus’s context.
https://overcomingthetribulation.com/like-a-thief/
I hope that helps!
God bless!
So who is getting killed in say Rev 6, the fifth seal? (for their faith) if they are sheltered as you say it is for Christians.
Someone is dying.
Yes, absolutely. That will be us being killed. When I say sheltered, I’m talking about from God’s Wrath, not from Satan’s–although the 144,000 are largely sheltered from Satan’s wrath, too. I believe the 144,000 are the woman in the wilderness in Revelation 12:13-17 who are protected from the dragon’s attempts to kill them. I believe they are also the church of Philadelphia.
What many people miss is the fact that even they the beast is able to kill the body, the soul is safe in God’s hands. In the Book of Revelation it appears that the beast is victorious because he is given power to overcome the saints. However, it is in our deaths that we overcome, just as Jesus overcame through His death. We overcome by His blood and the word of our Testimony, not loving our lives even to death. Jesus said, Do not fear those who can kill the body, but fear Him who can destroy both the body and soul in hell. He told us to take up our cross, and that those who seek to save their lives will lose them, but those who lose their lives for His sake will be saved. Paul tells us that we are kill all day long, that we are like sheep led to the slaughter. This does not mean every martyr will be physically killed, though Jesus implies that most will when He said, “if it were not cut short no flesh would survive. The word martyr was originally a judicial term referring to someone who gave witness or testimony. It only later became association with death because of so many who held the Testimony of Jesus were killed for that Testimony. Jesus says the flesh counts for nothing. Paul tells us that we have ALREADY been crucified, and that the old man, this body of death that we carry around, is already judged and is already dead. We await a new body at the resurrection, so the death of this body is of no consequence. In Luke I find it interesting that Jesus tells His disciples that some of them would be thrown in prison and killed, but not a hair on their head will be harmed. How is this possible? The answer…the resurrection.
Down through the ages good Christian exegetes have disagreed over how to interpret Revelation 20. I was taught progressive paralellism in seminary but remained open to other points of view. (But I clearly reject the pre-trib rapture theory.) Does the story continue from 19, or does the “And I saw” indicate a new section a new vision? Lately, I have been more impressed with the notion that Satan joins the beast and the false prophet alive in the lake of fire. This strongly suggests a separation of a thousand year X factor between the two castings. The x period is a time for those who defeated the beast to reign with Christ on earth and be rewarded and vindicated. The rest of dead, I see as believers down through the ages who rejoice in the vindication of the martyrs.
Hi Pat! Thanks for your reply.
I am confident Revelation 20:1-6 belongs with chapter 19:11-21 because in 1 Corinthians 15, verses 22-23, it says the resurrection of Christ’s dead is at His coming. Also, the hope of the resurrection in 1 Th 4:13-18 is not just be resurrected to life, but to be united with Christ at His coming. This hope is not limited to believers who are beheaded, and since it says the dead in Christ rise first before the alive and remain are caught up together with [the resurrected] to meet the Lord, I am convinced it means all the elect in Him—not just the specific subset of the dead cited in Revelation 20:4. Satan is chained, but He isn’t thrown into the Lake of Fire until the thousand years are ended and after the final rebellion he instigates. My guess is he is locked in Hades—where the wicked dead live until their resurrection.
God bless!
Yes. I agree with you. The rapture and rising of the dead in Christ occurs at His second coming.
When He comes clouds and fire come before Him.
It is the end bom of this evil system and rulership
I would like to point out the differences between Matt 24 and I Thess 4…
I Thess 4 (The Rapture)
In the Rapture passage of I Thess 4…
There is a mention of believers going up in the air to meet Jesus (not in Matt 24) — KEY POINT
There is a mention of resurrection and a translation (but not in Matt 24) — KEY POINT
There is a mention of Jesus doing the gathering, not angels as in Matt 24
There is no mention of the Sign of the coming of the Son of Man in the sky as in Matt 24) — KEY POINT
There is no mention of signs in the sun, moon, and stars and the Heavens shaken
There is no mention of everyone on earth seeing Jesus at the Rapture — KEY POINT
There is a mention of the Trump of God, but not the Great Trumpet (Shofar haGadol–technical term) of Matt 24 (See link at bottom)
There is a mention of Jesus descending with a shout (but not at 2nd coming in Matt 24)
There is a mention of one archangel, but no mention of many angels as in Matt 24
Matt 24:29-31 (Second Coming)
In the 2nd Coming passage of Matt 24…
There is no mention of believers going up in the air (as in I Thess 4)
There is no mention of a resurrection (or translation)
There is no mention of Jesus doing a gathering of saints, but rather angels doing the gathering of the elect (Jews from all over the world to Israel)
There is a mention of a trumpet, but it is the Great Trumpet (Shofar haGadol), not the trumpet of God of I Thess 4 (see link at bottom illustrating the Shofar haGadol)
There is a mention of angels, but not of one archangel as in I Thess 4
There is a mention of every eye seeing Jesus at the 2nd coming (but no such thing in I Thess 4)
SHOFAR haGADOL ILLUSTRATION:
Here is a depiction in art of the Shofar haGadol where Jews are being called together from all over the earth up to the Mountain of God–they are the elect of Matt 24:31–although it is not the 3rd Temple as they suppose)
https://www.chabad.org/blogs/blog_cdo/aid/4122836/jewish/Shofar-Gadol-The-Great-Shofar.htm
Hi Ruth.
An absence of detail is not a contradiction. Nobody ever analyzes the four crucifixion accounts and suggests Jesus was crucified four times, yet this happens with respect to His coming. I wrote an article to respond to the popular argument: “Once in the Clouds, Once to the Mount of Olives”: https://overcomingthetribulation.com/once-clouds-once-mt-olives/
The Holy Spirit is the giver of wisdom for those who earnestly seek Him.
God bless you!
Differences in details do not prove they are different events. In Zechariah Jesus’ feet land on the Mount of Olives, which splits in half. In Revelation He comes on a horse, with a large sword protruding out of His mouth. Zechariah doesn’t mention the armies of heaven coming with Him, and John doesn’t mention anyone escaping through the large valley created by His coming. Does that mean that there are TWO Second Comings of Jesus?
Where are we now . Been following the brilliant countdown to the kingdom.
I’m Catholic and have been told by quite a few priests that rapture isn’t a Catholic belief
Hi Liz,
I think we are waiting for the Tribulation to start soon. I made a video/blog about a prophecy from Hosea that I think governs the timing of these things: https://overcomingthetribulation.com/how-soon-jesus/
Since I made my video, World Economic Forum came out with this video about their vision for 2030. What they describe seems consistent with the establishment of the mark of the beast system and lines up with the timeline I was already thinking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBBxWtKKQiA. Also UN has been talking about their 2030 goals and Jack Dorsey tweeted, “2030” recently. I think the wicked rulers of the nations are using COVID-19 to push us there.
I would choose to focus on believing what the Bible says about a matter, because churches can lead us astray. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 describes a catching up of the alive and remain together with the resurrected in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (as He is coming). This seems straightforward to me. But it’s timing is not Pre-Tribulation (like many associate with the word “rapture”), nor does it suggest they go off to heaven. I believe strongly that we come right back down and reign with Him for the thousand years, as it says of the saints in Revelation 20:4-6. Even in Isaiah 24:23-25:6, it talks about the Lord reigning on Mt. Zion and having a feast with rich food and aged wines.
God bless!
I sit here at my computer on a Summer morning, in tears after hearing your teaching/Revelation. It’s been 27 years since the Holy Spirit opened up the scriptures as you JUST described. I was raised up to believe the pre-trib rature and in fact taught that myself for many years. (I must note that I had NOT studied out the scriptures myself) as I taught this other than reading a passage to teach that we will NOT be here during the tribulation. It’s funny when I think back about the years that I simply taught what was the NORM in the Bible Belt, I honest didn’t feel any real JOY or PEACE about the scripture. There was always an empty hole in my heart and I didn’t understand why until around 1994 when I poured myself into the scriptures using NOTHING but the Bible and the Strong’s Concordance to help me navigate the 10’s of thousands of verses.
I remember the 1st time I linked Revelation 20 and 1st Thessalonians 4: 15,16 about when the 1st Resurrection of the
dead in Christ”. BOOM, it was like a LIGHTBULB of Epic Proportions EXPLODED in my Heart, Soul, Mind and Body. Finally it all
made sense. God is not a Respecter of persons, so if he spares a “few” Christians from having to go through hard times (Tribulation) and Not Christians (innumerable) over the past thousands of years, then He would be a respecter of persons.
By the way, I was in a small 8×10 Prison cell, by myself and my Bible (serving a 10 year sentence for stupidity) when the Holy Spirit opened up the Scriptures to me…. Looking back, God KNEW that I needed to BE QUITE and ALONE for Him to REALLY reach My Heart. I’m SO glad He did. I have been out since 1995. FYI, I’m on my 3rd pacemaker, Was in ICU 50 days due to Severe Sepsis, IN a coma for 14 days on a ventilation, died 3 times, 2% chance of living.. (My family made funeral plans for me.) I have an unruptured Brain Aneurysm, Meniere’s (stage 4) P.T.S.D., severe Neck and back stenosis, and yet I live alone, raise a garden, love outdoors, attend a country church where I’m very active and fellowship with two other churches from other denominations, and I’m very active in helping with food banks and literally LOVE life as I KNOW every moment is a GIFT from God. I honestly believe that the Teaching that you are focusing on Annette is one of the EXACT reasons that God has kept me here. There WILL come a time when STARVING Christians (Spiritually) will HEAR what you have to say and it WILL finally make sense to them and help give them strength to “Overcome him (Satan) by the Blood of the Lamb and the Word of their Testimony.” Revelation 12:11 ….”and loved not their lives unto the death”
Thank You for sharing this Annette. If anyone wants to know any more about how God has touched my life you can read a tiny bit at Twitter @jennings261
Hi Ron,
Thank you so much for your touching comment! That’s so awesome that God used the same two passages to convince you earlier! Your last sentence about God keeping you here because there will come a day when spiritually starving Christians hear what we have to say and it will finally make sense to them and help give them strength to overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. There are days I just get really weary as I face antagonistic, condescending or apathetic Christians so often. God will use our trials to mature us. (I feel I still have a long way to go!) Praise the LORD for opening our eyes and giving us the testimony to glorify Him through it. Amen! I will make sure to follow you on Twitter.
God bless!
Great testimony, Ron! I know the joy of being ‘set aside for a time’ in order for God to draw me to Himself, and reset and teach.
Hallelujah!
“The Scriptures do not teach that every single person who isn’t born again will die at His coming. Zechariah 12-14 speak of Jews and Gentiles who survive His coming, and can repent and follow Him in the millennium”. Please post the specific scriptural references in Zechariah. Thank you
Zechariah 12:10-13:6 are about Israelites who survive Christ’s coming and turn to Him in repentance after He comes. Zechariah 14:16-19 are about Gentiles who survive Christ’s coming and turn to Him after He comes.
I can somewhat agree with you on Zechariah 12 and 13, although I think the Jews are repenting just as Christ and the saints arrive to finish off Jerusalem’s attackers. With Zechariah 14:16-19 however, the Millennial Kingdom has already begun, and you are saying unbelievers will be allowed to enter the Kingdom of Christ? My take is that Zechariah 14:17 is referring to the offspring of Gentile believers who made it through the tribulation. So not the original mortal inhabitants of the Kingdom but the “families of the earth”. These are children of tribulation converts who have not believed on Christ in the Millennial Kingdom. Same ones that will repopulate the earth with evil doers. These will team up with Satan once he is released for the final battle. Thank you for the discussion
Have you seen the Ambassadors for Christ videos? https://www.youtube.com/@aocnetwork They have a similar historic premill perspective that I think you would appreciate. They are very well done.
Hi Victoria. I do not know if I have yet–at least by name. I do not watch a lot of videos. Nice to hear. Maybe I’ll check them out soon. God bless.
My grandma said there no rapture but there is a second coming when he takes his own with him and my pastor said rapture is for the wicked and the Christian will be left I love to read your blogs they are very interesting I would like to do Bible study on revelation thanks I’m hancapped person so I don’t understand everything about be Christian and Bible just basic stuff this might help me not get confused by what’s on twitter and everything